I’m excited to share that the art series “LEGO Art” has just released a new addition to their collection: the famous Great Wave off Kanagawa by Katsushika Hokusai. Not only can you assemble the iconic wave using LEGO blocks, but LEGO has also created a special podcast that delves into the history of one of the most famous Japanese artworks. In this podcast, I had the honour of joining (under my real name) experts such as David Bull, a Canadian carving master who lives in Tokyo and is highly knowledgeable on Hokusai’s work, Alfred Haft, the curator of the Japanese section at the British Museum, and Tatyana Serraino, who animates the TikTok art channel @tatyanaaboutart.
I was interviewed for the podcast as a former curator of Japanese art, and had the opportunity to discuss Hokusai’s artwork and Japanese history with these esteemed guests. It was a fun and enlightening experience, but also a bit nerve-wracking as I was surrounded by such accomplished individuals.
If you’re interested in learning more about Hokusai’s Great Wave and the artist himself, I highly recommend checking out the condensed version of the podcast, which you can find HERE.
You can also listen to the long version here on youtube:
It’s a great way to immerse yourself in the art and culture while building the LEGO puzzle. So, be sure to grab your lego sets and give it a listen!
Thank you so much also to Palle Bo, from The Radio Vagabond, who organised the whole thing and invited me to participate.
Transcript
The podcast was remotely recorded, and of course edited in order to create a smooth interaction between all the guests.
Here is the original transcript of my part, in case you’re interested.
Introduction
Please start by telling me a little bit about who you are and what you do?
My name is Naoko. I used to lead a project called “Art Curator Japan”. Basically, it was an initiative to promote young Japanese artists in Taiwan, where I lived for a couple of years. Then I came back to Tokyo and the pandemic hit… So I was forced to put Art Curator Japan on standby. Nowadays I am starting a new project called “C Hub Japan”, which will act as a platform that connect Japanese traditional arts and crafts to foreign companies.
Why do you think this print has resonated with so many people across the world?
Probably, it comes from the way it was first introduced to the West. If you think about Europe or France in the 19th century, the Academy controlled everything, and young artists started to revolt against that. Especially from 1863 with the “Salon des Refusés”: artists from that group were looking for modern ways to paint. Hokusai’s Great Wave was introduced during those years. I guess it was so different from what the Academy was promoting at the time, and even different from what young artists were trying to achieve, that it probably had a huge impact on the young generation. That fascination was then repeated and amplified whenever more Japanese art was introduced in many other countries year after year. The composition is very powerful and seems free from unnecessary rules at the same time. So it was very different from anything made in Europe at the time.
What does the print mean to you?
Ironically ukiyo-e is not my favourite thing in Japanese art. I prefer Ogata Korin and the Rinpa school. But whenever foreigners ask me about Japanese art, they often think about Hokusai. It is probably the most well known work of all Japanese art, indeed.
Japan at that time
With every work of art, context can really help us better understand the subject matter and style. Tell me about what was happening in Japan at the time.
At that time, Japan had been enjoying about 200 years of peace and a tremendous economic and cultural boom, so people in those days were very optimistic about the future and their situation in life, I would say. Tokyo, which was then called Edo, had a population of over 1 million, and was thus I think the largest city in the world at that time. Although most buildings were made with wood, the city infrastructure was quite advanced, with very high hygiene conditions. The literacy level of people was also very high, and the cultural life was vibrant. There was no political tension yet, although the situation will slowly degrade during the next decades. Anyway, in 1831, when the Great Wave was created, normal citizens in Japan had no idea about the world’s geopolitics. Japan was under the Sakoku policy, which means “locked down country”. It was a self-imposed isolation, and many people just did’t care about what was happening outside Japan. Also, we are still 20 years before the arrival of the black ships of Commodore Perry in 1853. So in 1831, The shogunate’s rule was weaker than in the past but was not wavering just yet.
Also we need to remember that the first opium war between China and England started only in 1839. When China, which was considered in Japan as the big sister, lost to England, that was a shock! If China fell, how could a small country like Japan win? I think that from then on, people started to feel that dangerous times were ahead. Anyway, this all happened years after the creation of the Great Wave, so I don’t think you can consider a sentiment of insecurity among people in Japan in 1831.
Did the fact that Japan was closed and isolated from the outside world have an impact on the way Japanese art evolved at this time?
Yes, for sure. During the seclusion period, Japan did not completely stop the influx of foreign culture, and some fields such as Dutch studies and Western paintings developed under the influence of European culture. Also the culture of mainland China has always been the ideal model for the Japanese. In that sense, it cannot be said that the country was completely closed. However, it is certain that the isolation policy played an important role as a period to curb the influx of foreign cultures and mature the cultural heritage that had been accumulated before.
About Colours
Upon first glance, the colours of the print seem to create an initial sense of serenity, but the subject matter itself definitely changes that first impression, doesn’t it? Tell us a little bit about what we are actually looking at…
I am not sure there’s a sense of serenity here. This might be a Western point of view. I don’t know, maybe because grey skies and a lot of white may remind you of winter landscapes in Europe? For Japanese people, and especially at that time, using all that blue might have created a lot of excitement and a strong sense of energy because such shades of blue were completely new at the time. Actually, the colour of the sky differs from edition to edition. The one I’m looking at has a rather grey sky. In order to have a huge wave like that around Tokyo bay, you would need a big storm. So I think that Hokusai just painted the natural grey colour of stormy sky.
Hokusai used a special dark blue colour, known as Prussian Blue. Please tell me about that – and why it was so novel and unique in Japan at the time.
Traditionally, blue colours used in Japanese art were delicate and could fade rapidly under sunlight. Blue pigments were found in plants. The most famous was probably the colour ai, which is a sort of indigo. At first, when Prussian Blue came to Japan, it was very expensive, but later the price got more reasonable, so many painters started to use it. Prussian Blue was also very convenient to use, because it was stronger against fading, and you could make deep colours, and beautiful gradations easily.
Speaking of the sky and European influence, Hokusai has painted a low horizon in these paintings that was not so common in Japanese art at the time… is that right?
I think you can find low horizons in other ukiyo-e art. For example, there is…. the iris garden painted by Utagawa Hiroshige comes to mind…. I remember it has a very unique perspective, with giant flowers at the foreground and tiny people and low horizon at the back…
I remember another one by Utagawa Kuniyoshi. It has a very low horizon and some kind of a giant moon. I think it is from the series Famous Places of Eastern Capital.
Now that I think of it, it seems that whenever there is a low horizon, there are elements with very unusual proportions in the composition. So I would not say it is uncommon, but it is true that it’s not the most used perspective either. Anyway, I think it’s just another trick by Hokusai to put even more pressure on the people on the boats.
The perspective of Japanese paintings at the time were more ‘floating’ in nature, whereas European paintings tended to have more of a fixed perspective. Hokusai used this style in his “Thirty-six views of Mount Fuji” – so, is it fair to say that The Great Wave is a hybrid of Japanese and European ideas?
At that time the country was isolated and ties with foreign countries were cut. The only things that could come to Japan from abroad where through the Chinese and Dutch trades, based in the western part of the country. Wealthy people and intellectuals sometimes had access to western ideas and art, by buying things secretly.
Hokusai Actually painted a few works in the western watercolor style. They are very different from his usual production, so I think they were some sort of studies. He thus obviously had access to reproductions of European art. Both arts are completely different in concept, and I think it is understandable that Hokusai was interested in this exotic style and wanted to try it. It’s the same mechanism that happened when Japanese art was sent to Europe. It influenced many artists there. So, interestingly, Hokusai was probably influenced by Dutch painters, then he created the Great Wave, which blends both styles, and then the Great Wave influenced in return many artists in Europe. So it is like a full circle.
About Mount Fuji and Waves
I think one of the most powerful aspects of The Great Wave is Hokusai’s use of scale, what can you tell me about that?
Mt. Fuji is the tallest and the biggest thing you can find in Japan. On the contrary, the Great Wave off Kanagawa is supposed to depict a place somewhere around Tokyo bay. Tokyo bay is a place where waves are normally small. So what Hokusai actually does here is taking the tallest and the smallest thing you can find in Japan and then reversing their importance. Here, the wave completely dwarves the mountain. That shows the power of the sea and the power of nature. And the poor people on the boats are caught between the two elements with nowhere to escape.
Mt. Fuji has been considered a sacred mountain in Shinto since at least the 7th century, and there are many temples and shrines around it. Climbing this mountain has long been a religious act. The name Fuji itself can be read as a pun, and can mean something like “the most unique” or “immortal”. I’m not a religious person, but for some reason I always feel happy when I see Mt.Fuji in the distance on a clear winter morning. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s coded inside Japanese People’s DNA…
What can you tell us about some of the other prints in the series “Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji”?
I think that this series is a bit un-equal. What I mean by that is I find some of the artworks outstanding, like the Great Wave, but I also think that some in the series are rather ordinary works. You need to consider the fact that the artists were not exactly acting solo on the market. They responded to what was called a hanmoto. Hanmoto were some kind of publisher, or producer. So even if there was a dialogue between the artist and the hanmoto, the publisher had final decision for the contents of the series. So of course, money was central in the decisions. Hanmoto always wanted to create new, popular series, that would sell a lot. In this series of Mt. Fuji, they used this new colour, Prussian blue and this would definitely be popular among buyers. Furthermore, the publisher made the artist draw images of Mt. Fuji from various famous places. This is obviously another commercial trick to appeal to people’s desire to visit there.
The works I like in the series are: Fine Wind, Clear Morning ; Ejiri in Suruga Province ; Koshu Kajikazawa. And of course, the Great Wave.
What can you tell us about the wave itself…? What does it symbolise?
It’s a symbol of power. Interestingly, many samurai used a wave as their emblem on their kamon (a family crest, a bit like coat-of-arms in medieval Europe). There is a famous phrase from a very important essay called Hojoki (The Ten Foot Square Hut) by Kamo no Chomei (1212): “The river never stops running and the water is never the same as before”. The essay depicts the Buddhist concept of impermanence and I think the wave of Hokusai could imply the same thing.
When I look at this painting it almost seems crazy that these little boats have gone out fishing in weather like that. Do you think this is realistic, or is Hokusai making this up for dramatic effect?
We often describe the people there as fishermen, but if I remember correctly they are in fact more like transporters: they carried goods from around the bay to Tokyo. Some people tried to guess where the situation takes place, by examining the position and the angle of Mt. Fuji. They think that the wave is seen from the sea in front of Kisarazu City in Chiba Prefecture. If so, the action takes place in Tokyo Bay. There, the sea is normally calm, so I don’t think you would find waves like that, even during a storm. I think Hokusai made the scenery very dramatic to appeal more to his audience.
Japanese Art?
Was it normal for Japanese art to be framed at the time?
First of all, I don’t think that Japanese people at that time recognize ukiyo-e as a form of art. They were more like comic strips, in a way, or baseball cards, or bromides? Nice images to collect and enjoy, but not art like you would find in a palace or a famous temple. I don’t think ukiyo-e were framed and displayed on wall, if this is what you meant. It is said that one ukiyo-e image costed about the same price as a bowl of noodles. It was easy to buy and enjoy. Maybe people were also trading them? I don’t know.
By the way, traditional Japanese houses have very limited space for displaying art. Art would normally go to the tokonoma, the place of honour. There you would hang a scroll of calligraphy or other works like sumi-e. If you were very rich, you could also have decorated sliding doors with gorgeous paintings. Anyway In Japan, at that time, paintings were not framed like Western paintings.
Hokusai’s signature is in the top left corner of the print – and not in the lower right corner as we typically see in western paintings. Why is that – and was that common in Japanese paintings?
In this series, the signature is indeed most of the time, but not all the time, in the top left corner of the print. There is no rule in fact, other artists just signed here and there, all over the place. Even in calligraphy, which is a very codified art form, signature can go to different places. The signature was carved on the woodblock by the carver based on what the artist had written on the sketch. The title of the work is written in the rectangle. Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji: The Great Wave off Kanagawa. On the left is Hokusai’s signature, but it’s a bit funny. The signature says: “Drawn by Hokusai, who changed his name to Iitsu.” It is famous that he changed his name a lot.
Hokusai
It is said that Hokusai changed his name at least 30 times in his life. Why did he do that?
Legend has it that he changed his name so he could sell the previous one to his disciples. It would then be easier for them to capitalize on their master’s fame and make a living faster. But that’s just a story and I don’t know if it’s true or not. It’s a bit like selling a start-up or a brand: you grow the company for a couple years and resell it for a huge amount of money. Then you just repeat the process until you can buy a nice house in Miami.
Was that common for Japanese artists at the time?
I don’t think so.
He was extremely productive as an artist, wasn’t he?
Yes, he was. He actually did many genres of painting, from landscapes, to manga, to historical characters, etc. He also did a lot of erotic and even pornographic works. In the afterword of another series called One Hundred Views of Mount Fuji, he wrote:
“Since I was 6 years old, I have loved to copy the shapes of things, and although I have painted many works at around the age of 50, by the time I reached 70, all the paintings I had made felt insignificant. At the age of 73, I was able to draw some figures and shapes of various creatures and plants. Then, when I reach 86, I’m sure my skills will improve more and more, and at 90, all mysteries will be mastered. From the age of 100, I will be able to reach the realm of divine. Beyond that stage, a single point drawn on the paper will become a living thing as if it had acquired life. I pray that the god of longevity will see that these words of mine are not empty words.”
Hokusai was the first to use the term ‘manga’. But it’s not the same manga that we know from today, right?
Hokusai’s Manga is a collection of sketches published as a picture book. It was for art students, consisting of 15 volumes and 4000 drawings. So the purpose is completely different from the current comic books we call “manga” nowadays. The whole series give us an amazing insight about what Japanese life looked back then.
Did Hokusai influence other artists, both in Japan and in the West?
Well, there was an obvious influence over western artists like Van Gogh, who used the Great Wave as an inspiration for his Starry night. I think Monet actually collected Hokusai’s works. Famously also, Debussy’s composition La Mer was inspired by the Great Wave. I don’t remember the names, but I think that several European fashion or accessories creators were also influenced by Hokusai in the beginning of the 20th century. That being said, it seems also that Hokusai had a strong influence over the Japanese artists of his time. He pioneered many styles and techniques, and when those were successful, other artists did not hesitate to copy him in order to boost their own commercial success.
He never left Japan, is that right?
He never did. Japan was under Sakoku policy, so regular citizens were not allowed to leave the country.
Is it fair to say that we can read a bit Hokusai’s personality in The Great Wave? That there is a sense of standing tall and strong against oncoming obstacles.
Hokusai never stopped working on his technique and style, until his very last day. His last words expressed that deeply. He said: “If you give me another 10, no, 5 years of life, I could have become a real painter.”
Hokusai was 90 years old, but he wanted to live longer in order to reach perfection in his art. He probably felt small and humble in front of life and in front of art. Maybe this is reflected in the small beings who are tossed by the waves and who desperately try to cling to their small boat. But at the same time, Hokusai’s style is like the Great Wave: dynamic, bold and fearless. Hokusai was a risk taker. He did not fear novelty and dedicated all his life to improve his art. This remarkable attitude certainly made him one of the best known painters in the world.
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